Things with pointy tips thread

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by SheepHugger, Sep 30, 2019.

  1. Damion Sparhawk

    Damion Sparhawk The Missing Link Viking

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    Actually no, see the problem is you're confusing modern weapons with period weapons. When the rapier was in it's heyday high quality steel was still extraordinarily expensive and difficult to make. While the very rich (and savvy) would have what you describe, the vast majority had to make due with inferior quality blades and typically traded off a razor cutting edge for better parrying capability. On top of that, most people would wear some form of glove, so it would be quite rare for someone to grab the blade bare handed.

    Smallswords are a different monster entirely, and epee and foil was designed specifically to be a thrusting only weapon. Keep in mind I didn't say that they -could not- be, only that on average, they were not, and while grabbing a sharp blade that was not in fact razor sharp might still be unpleasant, it would be less likely to cause you more permanent damage. This does not make it any easier to actually hold on to the blade, you're still trying to gain purchase on a sliver of steel the other guy definitely doesn't want you having control over, but a skilled duelist might take advantage and use an open hand to deflect their opponents blade and perhaps even move in close and grab for the hilt, particularly if they've been disarmed themselves. Though frequently such a move would still be dangerous as most would carry daggers, as well as their rapier even if the duel itself was swords alone.

    I am quite familiar with the methods by which a rapier can be made to be sharp while still being strong and flexible, and with the steels and tools available today it is of course, quite common. I am however unlikely to duel with one :p I have considered sharpening the rapier I have, but given the likelihood of needing it to defend myself I simply haven't bothered XD. Were I forced to defend myself at home I would be far more likely to reach for my bow or pole mace, or my spike in the unlikely event that my assailant is also armored, for some reason.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  2. SheepHugger

    SheepHugger Well Liked Viking

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    The edge sharpness - a 90-degree edge angle can still be ridiculously sharp like razor or so, something like jagged metal edge or glass is a good example.

    The edge sharpness is a separate thing from how well the sword cuts through objects of differing materials and thickness. Even the higher edge angles such as 90 degree angle will cut like a razor when sharpened so but the problem is that as it tries to penetrate the target the edge angle determines how much of the target material it has to push aside.

    Because of this you can make lethal cuts with very thick objects on places like neck or inner thighs - even as the blade will be stopped quickly by it's thickness the flesh will compress a bit under a forceful cut and the cut can go a little bit more deeper than would be apparent from the blade geometry.

    The super thin edged wide blades will offer a much lesser friction as well as force spent on pushing aside the target and this allows them to more easily cut through a target at the cost of also suffering excessive edge damage - such as even being dulled from cutting meat when the edge rolls over when it has been left too thin and has not had the thinnest edge removed. The rollover will cause a very rapid blunting effect.

    By 16th century good quality spring steel was widely available in Europe and although costly it was not beyond the means of people any more than buying a new car is beyond the means of someone who uses his money frugally and has the discipline to save. Back in the day saving habits were quite different from consumer society. For most people much of income would be put aside for things that really mattered - and in 16th and 17th centuries owning a rapier really mattered for a lot of people. Not everyone but to quite many, the sign of gentleman for any gentleman or aspiring one.

    Finery forges etc. spread quite quickly in Europe and by 14th century economy was growing rapidly as was steel production and quality. What was true for 8th or 9th centuries was not the case for 14th century. The economy changed, technology progressed and income per capita and purchasing power grew quite rapidly at times, especially after the Black Death which sparked a new competition for both labor force and skilled labor and triggering a salary contest among those needing labor whereas in days before the pressure to keep salaries low was met with little opposition and kept the purchasing power low.

    Rapiers were common everywhere but daggers were interestingly banned in some cities. Hence for example Fabris's fencing books include three sections
    - Rapier
    - Rapier and dagger
    - Rapier and cape

    Rapier is meant to act as 'fundamentals and basics', you're supposed to have something in both hands if possible and if not otherwise agreed such as in the choyce of armes for a duel. Parrying dagger or left hand dagger would be ideal for the second hand but as it was illegal in places a cape would - according to Fabris - be able to be used sometimes as a superior sidearm to a dagger, albeit heavier and more tiresome for the arm.

    For single rapier he notes that to use your empty hand too much is a bad habit and will only result in getting wounded in the hand. The hand is at all times kept in place by the head with palm open - it is reserved for when nothing else will save you in which case you will not indeed grab the blade but use your open palm to guide it away and to protect your head, body and legs at the cost of potentially superficial cuts or worse to your arm, which still beats the heck out of getting the side of your throat or back of knee sliced open. The latter risks the knee tendons and the former risks bleeding to death.

    plate_042.jpg
    Fabris Book I, plate 42, using the left hand

    plate_030.jpg
    Fabris Book I, plate 30, wounding the opponent with a Mandritto Fendente either after yielding in inside bind or after opponent's Cavazione



    I can't make out the details of your mace but it looks good and is the perfect situation for home defense indoors where taller weapons quickly become unwieldy. For realistic home defense - pair it with a steel shield that can stand firearm rounds, preferably with the two wrist wraps and not a center grip so you can actually hold it in place.
     
  3. Damion Sparhawk

    Damion Sparhawk The Missing Link Viking

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    Sheep, you really don't have to explain to me the physics of sharpness. Neither of us were there so the entire conversation is based on historical examples and what we know, or think we know, about the period. The material was available, but expensive, the skills were available, but also expensive, and not always available or even known to be desirable, to the masses in general. Most of Europe knew how to make a blade cut, but it was a rare smith that knew how to make a blade -sharp- and even rarer still those who could do it for a blade of any length. Of course it's ill advised to grab your opponents blade, and as I said it was more commonly deflected than grabbed, you're rehashing things I've already stated, almost verbatim. It's the last ditch because, even if the blade isn't razor sharp, it will still likely cut, just maybe not disfigured. The legality, popularity, and whatnot of dueling aids is quite irrelevant in the circumstances I described, at that point your opponent has already decided they'd rather cheat than die, going to jail is hardly the lesser option. The buckler was also briefly popular until social pressure convinced idiots that it wasn't 'cool' to use a shield, which basically amounted to people weren't bleeding enough for the peanut gallery. Apparently even a small shield is remarkably effective when you are defending against a very narrow threat.

    Goddamn photobucket is blurring the picture even more than it already was, I'm just going to download everything I have in there and move it somewhere else, I'm tired of their bullshit. I doubt either of my shields would be bulletproof past maybe 9mm, they were not designed to be functional.
     
  4. SheepHugger

    SheepHugger Well Liked Viking

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    I talked more about the grabbing with others and I think the main reason Fabris advises against it is not that it is impossible to grap a rapier's blade by the third of fourth (near the tip) but that it is not reliable enough of a tactic and that you'd be better off - to his opinion - doing something else like grabbing the hilt. He really wanted his folk to fence safely and he would have you always disengage and seek an advantage than to try anything without one.

    We do know of the sharpness of swords because of some well preserved archaeological findings that were very sharp. We can also look at things chronologically and see that towards the 18th and 19th centuries the skill of sharpening swords gradually fades and metal scabbards become commonplace - along with mass produced sabers which in places were supposed to be kept dull during peace time (UK).

    We also know that rapiers were readily available to a huge portion of populace and were used widely. Still not by average peasant but quite affordable to a huge portion of people living in cities. We know of the effects of many of the blades that were used in duels from the duel descriptions - such as easily cutting knee tendons on both legs with reasonably small and quick movements and causing the opponent to be immobilized and defeated.

    We know quite a bit about the metallurgy and the skill of the smiths from both archaeological finds and surviving documents. Europeans quickly mastered spring steel and increasingly efficient means of steel production albeit not the puddling process that was known to China from iirc. 5th century AD, which was a really good steel making process - large volumes and high control over the precise carbon contents.

    That said Europeans did learn to heat their forges hot enough for the slag and dirt to separate completely from the iron and combining with finery forge there was a quite efficient method for producing steel of desired carbon content even without the understanding of such contents as carbon content. The notion that steel was impure keeps being influenced by notions from Japan where the Tatara process fell only about 100C or so below the point where the iron would completely separate from the contaminants. This resulted in all of the oxides remaining in the steel regardless of how much folding was done - the other stuff would burn away but the products of burning would remain in the metal. Chemical analysis on historical katanas shows the presence of the oxides while the steel is otherwise quite pure.

    The Scandinavian ingot (kind of a soccer ball of steel) process allowed for mass production of high grade steel ingots the name of which I don't remember right now but they became a commonly traded item to the extent that the ingots became a common term for the value of goods - "goods for the value of 'n' ingots". These were traded all across Europe.

    In 16th and 17th centuries swords were everywhere. And often of the latest model with merchants and the like sometimes having obsolete older style swords that were acquired for quite a low cost. Some of the cheapest swords in 14th century could go as low as ~2 weeks salary if I remember correctly, that is the salary of a farmhand, or ~5 days salary of someone better paid for a very basic older sword. Given the swords being status items many would invest for themselves a large sum of money into them which also led to them being so well kept and looked after.

    Also, sword and buckler infantry was quite commonly used especially in Italy and iirc. in Iberian peninsula as 'light assault infantry', though Spanish and Portuguese also had rodeleros and the Portuguese equivalent term. Many of which were nobles wearing full plate, the rotella steel shield and a rapier.
     
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  5. Lardaltef

    Lardaltef Well Liked Berserker

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    I'm not sure if this belongs here but since it seems to be from a fighting manual.

    [​IMG]
     
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  6. SheepHugger

    SheepHugger Well Liked Viking

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    Oh, definitely, it is from the manuscript of the old master Paulus Hector Mair.

    [​IMG]

    And here's an image of master Mair:
    [​IMG]
    The man was a fencer, historian and civil servant of the city of Augsburg. He amassed a collection of treatises and manuscripts of other fencing masters and also received full training in martial arts of the day and likely served in cavalry in any wars their free city would be involved in.

    [​IMG]
     
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  7. Damion Sparhawk

    Damion Sparhawk The Missing Link Viking

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    OBVIOUSLY as techniques improved, so to did the weapons relying on them. The knowledge to craft quality steels was present, but smiths were still quite secretive amongst themselves and frequently would be working with outdated methods even in the same cities of better trained smithies. People were still just as capable of not knowing themselves, the difference between high quality spring steel and more mild carbon blades, and even smiths themselves sometimes wouldn't actually know, relying on incorrect or deliberately misinformed knowledge base. Swords were literally everywhere, does not mean every single one of them was made with wootz ingots of the finest caliber available.

    I KNOW what had been discovered, what was available, what the best case for the time was. I also know that just like today, you won't find the best in every shop, and all of them will claim to produce only the highest available quality while being unaware of what is actually available, or simply not caring. Very few things produced in any quantity are of better than mediocre quality for the time, and while those museum quality remnants tell a story, very few of them are likely of the more common stock. I can assure you the cheapest swords were -not- of the finest quality steel available, nor crafted by the highest caliber of smith.

    You keep coming back to the sharpness and quality of steel, I can assure you without even an ounce of hesitation that the average blade was just that, average. You would not catch a peasant duelist attempting to shave with his rapier unless that was the only blade he could afford, and odds are even then it wouldn't be sharp enough for the purpose. Not because the techniques weren't available, not even because the steel wasn't quality enough to hold the edge. No, it wouldn't be sharp enough because unless it was literally his livelihood (which would probably mean he would not live very long) he himself would likely not have the means (materials) or the skill necessary to maintain that edge.

    In every period story you'll always have a character religiously upkeeping their gear, but they almost never show anyone else paying it much attention. This of course doesn't mean they're paying it no attention whatsoever, story gets pretty boring when you include mundane details like that, but the reason it's noteworthy is because the only one of them would likely have a razor's edge on their blade is that guy, religiously upkeeping his equipment. Funny thing about steel is while it's rugged, it can take a beating and remain serviceable, in order to remain at the peak of efficiency it requires quite a bit of maintenance which most people never apply. For most people it's 'good enough' until it's chipped, or rolled. Not merely sharpening, but applying the correct oils to the blade and stowing it correctly while it's not in use. It's time consuming and if you're on a budget it can definitely make you question the necessity. And this is by today's standards, though of course, some things are not significantly different, odds were back then they'd probably use rendered fat instead of more expensive oils, but this would increase the amount of maintenance they'd be required to do. Everything's a tradeoff.

    And again, none of that matters the moment gloves come into play, because your rapier is going to have to be an order of magnitude sharper than a razor to be able to slice through even a rather small gauge of steel rings. Using your hand to deflect is considered bad form, but if someone were to actively abuse that knowledge to their advantage, it would only be a minute consideration to add some light mail to their gloves. That said however, deflecting is one thing, actually grabbing the blade is quite a bit more difficult, it would be far easier to simply ring the blade, push it to the side as you move in to grab the guard, or otherwise remove control of the weapon from your opponent. Assuming of course you're disarmed, if you have a weapon just stab them. :p Also before you argue about the ring gauge, keep in mind I'm referring to -slicing- not actually a directed strike but the draw of an edge along a surface. Sticking your hand in the way of someone's slash is an entirely different series of mechanics. You might actually want a gauntlet at that point :p

    I was referring to dueling sword and buckler, not military.
     
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  8. Lardaltef

    Lardaltef Well Liked Berserker

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    There's also plenty of times in fantasy novels of people getting their blades sharpened. I wonder if that's due to the character not knowing how to, not having the time to, not having the materials or a combination of the three.

    I'm pretty sure that could be a full time job. Not one that has alot of people doing it. It probably has some basis in history (besides it being boring to read so-so sat down and sharpened their swords for hours).
     
  9. Damion Sparhawk

    Damion Sparhawk The Missing Link Viking

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    It was, and honestly, there are -still- people who do this job, though I doubt it could be a full time gig outside of maybe a really bored smithy. Though the reason for getting someone else to do it is twofold, first, you don't have to do it yourself, and second, it's significantly easier to do with a grindstone to get rid of any burs and nicks. You can do it all by hand if you have to, but it's a lot more work and you risk damaging your whetstone. Also that is quite literally where the phrase 'nose to the grindstone' comes from. Whether it's blades or shovels or chisels or axes they all need constant sharpening when they're in constant use. We use a lot of machining and disposable bits nowadays but back then recycling was literally throwing it back in the forge and starting over, probably easier just to sharpen it until it breaks.
     
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  10. SheepHugger

    SheepHugger Well Liked Viking

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    Shit, Damion, I'm sorry. I've been talking past you and not comprehending appropriately what you've been trying to say. My apologies.

    Smithing of swords as most professional trades within cities were strictly regulated by guilds which had in place strict rules for who was allowed to be called a master, how long you had to be working as an apprentice and at what prices goods were being sold and also paying attention to the quality of produce as the whole city's exports reputation lie at stake.

    For example in one field the minimum time as an apprentice was 12 years just as a minimum time before being timewise allowed your first testing for the right to call yourself a master. Even then the application could be rejected based on your skill and ability or simply because it would seem that there was not enough demand and this would further raise the bar for skill requirements.

    You're absolutely correct that this did not lead in every sword being a wootz sword - in fact some of the iirc. Sri Lankan swords were found in modern tests to have a unique nano scale structure on the surface that their smiths in that region had somehow stumbled upon with their experimentations without understanding what or why - just seeing that their process resulted in some of the best blades seen until recent decades.

    Also the guilds would only influence cities, outside of cities it was much harder to enforce limitations upon local smiths and self-sufficient farmsteads which repaired and sometimes produced their own tools - possibly even some weapons for their own needs.

    There is also the question of what happened to the blades that were being worked by - say - the apprentice and which did not pass for the standards. Were they always reforged, were they ever sold discreetly at discount?

    And what was the difference in quality between various masters?

    Similarly I agree, after merely coming into possession of a weapon the story can fork quite a lot. For instance Polish Hussars were known to carry warbows as part of their everyday attire well into 17th century with a nobleman observer noting that "few if any could actually fire them with any accuracy". Just because a weapon is present does not mean that the person knows how to use it well or has gone through the pain of taking care of it appropriately - or at all.

    In the latter regard people with estate (land owners) were the best off. Those with land usually had the means to have a servant or several. It has been pointed out repeatedly that the description of servants in literature is dismissive - there was an example of two gentlemen going out on a walk just by the two of them and suddenly one of them takes off his coat and a servant just appears conveniently to take and carry it for him.

    For people with servants the servants would typically be responsible for things like cleaning and taking care of tools, equipment and weapons. Which reminds me my own grandfather worked on a farm and in his work resumee "keeping of tools" was one of the things he was graded with for how well he maintained and stowed the tools that fell under his responsibility. The fact of which being graded meaning that even paid servants and farmhands would obviously differ in how well they performed these tasks!

    So yes, ideally a sword would be sharpened so that you could shave with it and it would be maintained and oiled appropriately. It is obvious that this was not 100% the case.

    We simply do not know how common the best practices were or how well the median person did etc.

    What we do know is that someone going into a formally declared duel with a proper advance notice would have both a motive and the time and means to make sure his sword was in best possible shape for the duel. Even this does not mean that everyone had it perfect but I dare think that it would be common for the swords to be sharp, not unlike being on a campaign and either personally or having one of your camp servants maintain the battle readiness of your gear.

    What is interesting is that in duel no one party would have something like a mail mitten without the other one having the same. It was of utmost importance that both parties should have the same encumberment as well as the same level of protection and the same weapon. It was the defendant's privilege of choosing the armes used. It would not just appear cowardly to appear with undue personal protection for a duel - the duel would not likely proceed in such a case and failing to meet the code of conduct the party at fault would simply lose his honor if not face some form of punishment from the legal presence that sometimes accompanied formal duels.

    Outside of duel if you were to have a mail mitten on then you'd have to walk around town doing your routines constantly wearing one or carrying it with you and able to put it on at a moment's notice.

    That said a leather glove as you said offers quite good protection even against sharpest blades for the purpose of grabbing them. Rather the glove be ruined than your own skin. It can also offer superior grip to a bare hand, at least for me it usually does and considerably so. Grabbing the tip of rapier is still difficult to hold on to but easier for the broader tipped swords. Sometimes a blade could be locked in your armpit too or even against your shoulder, assuming you're not actually parrying it with those parts.

    And parrying with hand is iffy not because it won't stop a rapier from cutting your throat or head but because the rapier will likely cut deep and cause you a proper wound on your arm. Remember that it does bite quite well even to wood and none of the rapiers from the day seem to be so bad that they would not cut enough to really wound you with a cut regardless of where they landed.

    In training some people have two reasons for not scoring rapier cut to, say, torso - number one reason being to encourage better forms such as instead hitting a target that is going to more quickly end the duel in your favor and for the second reason because to this day a lot of people confuse rapier for a thrust only sword when rapier is cut and thrust sword.
     
  11. SheepHugger

    SheepHugger Well Liked Viking

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    This is true - grinding was the job of not the master but perfectly fit for apprentice or some other servant, the Real History servitors! :D

    You can just resharpen a sword or a tool for a really long time but eventually they'll require reworking. Nowadays a common process is to just, say, cut a shape out of piece of steel and then work from there when you've got the rough shape together but back then the steel itself was valued in the same orders of magnitude as the work and hence we have saying about transitioning plows to swords or vice versa.

    My friend has a really old lever operated rotating sharpening stone. One of those would make the job a lot easier even back in the day - also water power was frequently used where available to operate things like trip hammers, polishing stones etc. - the early machining tools.
     
  12. Damion Sparhawk

    Damion Sparhawk The Missing Link Viking

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    Agreed, and I would certainly not recommend attempting to parry open handed without some kind of glove, even unsharpened steel can cut if drawn swiftly across bare flesh. That said however, there are techniques and styles which promote the use of the off-hand in rapier duels.
    Exerpt from http://swordfight.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Rapier-Workbook-v1.0.pdf
    Even if the blade -is- sharp, it is not impossible to avoid a cut when using the hand simply to parry or misdirect the blade, as unless the blade truly is -razor- sharp it's not likely to cause much damage from pushing against the flat side of the blade. While this might seem difficult due to the slender nature of the weapon it's actually quite simple, as you can tell the blades orientation easily from the position of the quillions. There is of course still some risk, a clever opponent might be able to twist the blade to bring the edge in line with your hand, but they'd be risking quite a bit for minimal gain, limiting their line of attack to one already protected, even if it be only by your hand.

    The vast majority of blades would be crafted by apprentices, particularly in the largest forges. Most would only be casually inspected by a journeyman smith to eliminate the truly bad, and pluck out those that were especially good, the rest would be sold as mean weapons to the majority. The master smith himself would frequently only work on commission. The -greatest- problem with the master system, is once granted the title, it was rarely ever brought to question, there was no renewal, once you had proved you -could- be a master smith, noone ever questioned whether you still -were-. Also, guilds were frequently corrupt, particularly in areas where the government was lax, and enterprising individuals with low morals and a high starting budget could buy their way into mastery. Like I said, once you were a master, noone questioned it. Of course you'd also have charlatans but they'd get driven out of the cities pretty quick, they usually stuck to the countries, lying about their skills, smithing isn't really a good trade for those however since most of your tools are quite difficult to move and once someone realizes you're a fake you gotta get moving quick. Smithing isn't really a good job for someone deliberately attempting to fool people anyway, because generally they do that to avoid hard work, smithing is definitely not the kind of work one would consider 'light duty'.

    All that said though, of course there were standards, competition, you couldn't put out wrought iron crap if the smith down the road is using spring steel. At best people would stop using your smithy, at worst the guild would shut you down. In a single area most of the blades are likely to be of similar quality with only the very cheapest blades and the most expensive blades having a significant amount of actual mechanical difference.

    As for the gloves, people cheat, for the dumbest fucking reasons, even if the risk for getting caught is much higher than the reward for success. In general one and all think they're being clever until they get caught.
     
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  13. SheepHugger

    SheepHugger Well Liked Viking

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    Fabris does require that the empty hand be kept by the cheek or so at all times so that it is ready to protect the head and upper torso as a last resort.

    I also tried last time to use it as an aid when having the advantage and going for the attack, I had my leather glove penetrated by the blunt rapier and another stab in the middle of palm but both of these would have healed quite well and allowed me to survive the duel alive and in good health while the opponent would have had his torso or head skewered. It can work quite nicely within the tempo and also just having a hand in the way as a physical obstacle between the blade and your head and neck is not nothing.

    The main problem Fabris points out is if people are presenting their empty hand too eagerly - then it can be lured forward with a feint with the intent of wounding the hand as it comes forward. Similarly merely grabbing the blade can work but it can also result in the blade being yanked out with a cut to your hand but if it works then it works! As everything in fencing, really...

    As for the duel, it would be hard to cheat having a mail mitten in it - given that the seconds would inspect the gear and be exercising 'highest prejudice' against the opposing party. That said if something could be done there's a good chance someone at some point did it - with the difference being to understand what was the rule and what was the exception that reinforces the rule.
     
  14. Damion Sparhawk

    Damion Sparhawk The Missing Link Viking

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    In the age of bravado quite a number of duels were fought without a second on the spur of the insult, which is likely -why- the whole rules of engagement and seconds and all that was established, good people were dying to rash action by being too stupid to recognize a lure when they saw one.

    Which leads quite nicely into luring the open hand, even in the treatise recommending the action, it also recommends using it sparingly, it's most potent value is in the surprise it brings to an opponent when you sweep and lunge (or whatever other tact you choose) but if you make a habit of doing it, you can just as easily lead yourself into a nasty trap that will leave scars even if you manage to survive.

    Of course even back then, while the odds were certainly more in your favor, there certainly were blades of high quality that, even if they may not swipe the fingers from your hand, could certainly leave you in need of a good surgeon, even through the dubious protection of an unmailed leather glove or mitten. Particularly in the hands of someone familiar in countering the tactic, it may be difficult to move from a lunge to a slash, but sweeping -away- is quite simple, combined with a withdrawal you can potentially cause a severe wound to your foe and escape all but the most aggressive pursuits.

    Which is likely why you'd never catch me risking my life in a duel, flashy and amazing to watch, (when the participants are skilled, otherwise it tends to just be short and messy) the stakes are too high for anything but a sure bet.
     
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  15. SheepHugger

    SheepHugger Well Liked Viking

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    Oh yea, countless records of individual men and even groups just starting out fights from stuff like staring at others and exchanging undue insults with several dead at times.

    And the duel to the death as they tended to be until the decline of the dueling culture - many of the best fencing masters made a big bank selling intensive solo training to those looking to fight in a duel. They would likely sell property to be able to afford a month of high intensity training with the best master they could afford.

    By the way I wanted to share this 1796 Infantry Pattern spadroon that I saw the other day, one rare sword for having been so well preserved over the centuries:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    ----------
    I don't have much time to go through all the old links and I find that I lost the few that I even ever wrote down on the old computer but there are sharp swords found in bogs, sewers etc. and for example a dane axe that was found from a bog that was razor sharp, as well as some of the edge preserved in other pieces which is close to razor sharpness.

    I recommend doing some cutting practice and just goofing around with stuff. You can literally take a reasonably bad piece of iron that isn't even steel and just hand grind a some kind of an edge to it (or use a power tool to just give it a rough edge to save time) and try it on various targets of cloth, meat and bone. The things are lethal and cut well - to be true it is ridiculously simple to make a very lethal blade weapon.

    The difficulty in cutting is not in the creation of a weapon that will cut well. The much bigger difficulty is in mastering the cutting technique, from edge alignment to proper cutting structure to going through the target and accelerating to maximum speed at the right time. It is the speed and form that cut best, when you know how to do it you don't need to pull a long distance either. It's hard at first and I myself still need a fair bit of training - I've been hampered by being too busy to practice much at all.

    What is funny is that you don't need a really good sword to cut really well and how simple it really is to make a very decent sword when you've got something like a finery forge providing really quite good steel that can be easily as a standard practice made into spring steel.

    The Japanese excessive mastery at smithing comes down to their limitations; how to make a really good sword with minimal amount of good steel that still contains impurities when you also have no spring steel available - and they solved this difficult dilemma masterfully.

    Now, having a good supply of reasonably affordable good steel and it being spring steel - it doesn't really require all that much ingenuity to make a basic good sword.

    If I had the time I could arrange a methodological recording of results of test cuts against swine heads with swords that are for all intents and purposes just like your typical medieval sword. That's a project I've been waiting to do but it would also benefit from multiple different weapon types - one of them being a typical rapier to see what the effects are to head from a rapier.
     
  16. Damion Sparhawk

    Damion Sparhawk The Missing Link Viking

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    Sheep, I've been researching smithing since I was 12, I've sharpened my own blades since I bought my first pocket knife. I have my own grinder and if I had the space for it, I'd build my own forge. I know how easy it is to make something 'sharp' I also know how significant the difference can be between too brittle and too soft, how the angle of the edge can be varied depending on the nature of the work to be performed. Convex, concave, serration, acid etched micro-serration, honing, stropping, carbon content the difference between cutting and tearing... All of it comes into play in determining not just whether it can be sharp, but how long it'll stay that way under what conditions. I also know how easy it is to screw it up, if you don't know what you're doing :p

    Sharpening something is easy, my dad has a sword my uncle made when he was first getting started, probably never actually been sharp since they used it for playing around, made it out of aluminum so it's light as a feather and has some incredibly wicked gouges taken out of it from when they were screwing around. I'm sure it -could- be sharpened, but it'd last until the first solid strike against another object. Most steels are a tiny bit more resilient than a raw aluminum thing, but it serves the purpose, one of the most common reasons people don't keep their blade razor sharp isn't just laziness, every time you touch another blade of comparable hardness it wears at your edge. If you do -anything- that the sword wasn't actually built for, it tears up your edge. So really the only way to ensure that your blade is razor sharp all the time, is to sharpen it, all the time. Very few people are going to get out their stone and sharpen the blade every time they pull it from the sheath.

    All that said though, I've literally cut myself on a book. Not the paper, the binding. Under the right conditions, even the most obtuse of objects can be 'sharp'. Technique is certainly one of many conditions that attribute to the cut. One edge will work better with a long slow draw while another will be just fine with a quick sharp motion, but dull as a spoon if the cut is to slow.

    Good steel can last for a surprising amount of time depending on the condition it was in at the time it was lost, the better the steel the harder it is for oxides to take hold, though even stainless isn't perfect. More frequently steel lasts longer due to environment conditions, methane displacing oxygen in a swampy condition, being hermetically sealed by circumstance.

    The Japanese mastery comes down to three things, learning how to create high carbon steel, learning how to use high carbon and low carbon together, and ritualizing the process so the skills aren't lost as easily while still allowing certain aspects of the process to be kept secret among the households. Apparently Kublai Khan was the catalyst for the development of high carbon steel in Japan.

    Aaaaand I need to get to sleep, I'm still on day shift and it's 1am, apologies if something seems short or doesn't make sense XD
     
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  17. SheepHugger

    SheepHugger Well Liked Viking

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    One thing I never understood about Japan - just across the sea in China they had mastered the puddling process for a thousand years before Sengoku Jidai began. And during all of that time the puddling process just stayed in China. I wonder if the Chinese were as cautious about their secrets back then?

    And part of the answer can be found from Chinese history. The Chinese became cautious about having contact with foreigners despite having total and complete mastery of the seas and simply eradicated their own naval supremacy, murdering their own shipwrights and destroying records of the voyages!

    And my apologies to you, I didn't remember your background in smithing.

    By the way, I thought you'd like to see this thing made in latter half of 16th century, an orthosis devise!

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Damion Sparhawk

    Damion Sparhawk The Missing Link Viking

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    Well, Japan and China haven't exactly been great friends for much of that time. On the flip side, China had the puddling process to create better steels, but Japan's lack of raw materials forced them to perfect the methods of purifying and forging those steels in order to generate the best possible blade for the cost. China had all sorts of technological goodies hidden behind their walls wasted by a government system steeped in excessive domineering. I mean, traditions are great, but far too frequently tradition has been just as terrible an excuse to commit terrible crimes as religion and just general hatred.

    I really hope there's a plate underneath those three screws...
     
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  19. SheepHugger

    SheepHugger Well Liked Viking

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    Yea, there is a plate and the screws allow to adjust the plate's contact.

    firearms.jpg

    I do think it's kind of silly to get shot by someone with a pistol when you have a musketoon.
     
  20. Hakija

    Hakija Chaos Pony Viking

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    Probably already fired it. Reloading on horseback would be bitch.